In an unique interview with cryptonews.com, Elena Nadolinski, CEO of Iron Fish Basis, talks about making crypto accessible to everybody, zero-knowledge proof know-how, and tells tales from working at Microsoft, Tilt, and Airbnb.
About Elena Nadolinski
Elena Nadolinski is a pc scientist and software program engineer, and the CEO of the Iron Fish Basis, the group supporting the Iron Fish community, a devoted privateness layer for Web3 with built-in compliance options.
Previous to founding Iron Fish in 2017, Elena labored as a software program engineer at corporations together with Microsoft, Tilt, and Airbnb. Elena is a Forbes 30 underneath 30 alum, and has been honored with awards from each the White Home and the Central Intelligence Company for her excellent achievements.
Elena Nadolinski gave a wide-ranging unique interview, which you’ll see under, and we’re glad so that you can use it for publication, offered there’s a credit score to www.cryptonews.com.
Highlights Of The Interview
- Iron Fish 101 & Iron Fish’s current Mainnet launch
- Making crypto accessible (making it simple to run nodes, mine tokens, and so on.)
- Zero-knowledge proof know-how and purposes
- Proof-of-work vs. Proof-of-stake
- Tales from working at Microsoft, Tilt, and Airbnb
Full Transcript Of The Interview
Matt Zahab
Girls and gents, welcome again to the Cryptonews Podcast. We’re buzzing as all the time. It is your host Matt Zahab, dwell from Toronto. Now we have somewhat little bit of a warmth wave right this moment. The AC simply went capoot and it’s 79 levels in my workplace, which is fairly scorching. And for my, I do not even know what the conversion is from Fahrenheit to Celsius. I am Canadian. I ought to know that. However nonetheless, we’ve got a little bit of a sweat recreation occurring right this moment. So bear with me right here, of us. Tremendous pumped to have right this moment’s visitor on Elena Nadolinski, laptop scientist, software program engineer, and the CEO of Iron Fish Basis, the group supporting the Iron Fish Community, a devoted privateness layer for Web3 with built-in compliance options. Previous to founding Iron Fish in 2017, Elena labored as a software program engineer at corporations together with Microsoft, Tilt and Airbnb. Wow, ever heard of these three? Elena can also be a Forbes 30 underneath 30 alum and has been honored with awards from each the White Home and the CIA for her excellent achievements. Holy shit. I can’t wait to get into that. Tremendous pumped to have you ever on Elena. Welcome to point out my pal. How are you?
Elena Nadolinski
I am good. Thanks a lot. That was an important introduction. Thanks.
Matt Zahab
Nicely, I imply, your workforce additionally placed on a platter for me, however nonetheless, I’ll graciously settle for the compliments. So thanks very a lot. However let’s soar proper into it. Earlier than we get into the crypto aspect of issues, we have to contact on the White Home. We have to contact on the CIA as a result of that’s bananas. And clearly all the businesses you labored for earlier than that, you and I had been taking pictures ship for the present. You had been positioned within the one and solely San Fran, or because the locals prefer to name it SF and never San Fran. Is it as dangerous as everybody says it’s proper now? Give me the lowdown. What is going on on there?
Elena Nadolinski
Yeah, SF has been largely impacted by COVID for certain. I believe it is one of many cities that’s making the slowest comeback. And I imply, I like the town to dying. Like that is why I moved right here. I am, , I am in all probability a Bay Space life or, effectively, I say that with asterisk for the time being, however yeah, the town itself is in a reasonably tough spot. I am fairly optimistic although. I believe individuals are realizing how dangerous it’s and there is constructive motion of their interplay, but when there are vacationers on the market, I’d advocate that you simply wait to go to the town.
Matt Zahab
As a result of I’ve by no means been, once more, I’ve had in all probability 20 or 30 individuals within the pod, some shut associates who dwell there. All of them inform you an identical factor. They’re like, it’s from a kind of bodily and nature standpoint. Completely gorgeous. Among the finest on the earth. Lovely, excellent climate. You title it. However simply homeless individuals operating in every single place, dropping quantity twos in the midst of the road, taking pictures up within the center. Everybody says it is simply its nightmare gas there.
Elena Nadolinski
Yeah. I am going to second all of that. Bay Space is attractive. When it comes to high quality of place to dwell, because of nature, I do not assume there is a metropolis that may prime that, actually. I imply, you go half-hour in your bike and also you’re in essentially the most lovely a part of nature that you have ever seen. Like, it is fairly unbelievable. It’s hilly, for certain, however you get superb views, like, extraordinarily gorgeous views. And the tradition, the people who SF attracted are simply, , the perfect of their area. And I do know it is a very, like, monotone metropolis within the sense that everybody is in tech, however if you’re your self in tech, like, that’s the place to be. You already know, you go to a espresso store and also you overhear someone speaking about crypto or AI. And then you definitely, like, chime in or perhaps, like, you even drop it a bit extra and also you understand that it is just like the co-author of, like, this revolutionary paper for, like, transformers or no matter that’s, like, subsequent to you speaking in regards to the matter. And so, like, that’s extraordinarily particular. And there’s no metropolis on the earth prefer it, like, a lifeless cease. Even now, even what, , as it’s getting rather more or worse with, sort of such as you mentioned, , all AI corporations are right here, proper? So it is nonetheless, like, a really particular place.
Matt Zahab
One factor I must reality verify, as you’re a girl, I’ve one shut pal who lives there. He says when he goes to the bar, he says the ratio is, like, 9.9 to 0.1 guys to gals. Is that dangerous?
Elena Nadolinski
I imply, it does not imply we’re not that dangerous, however this can be a large ratio.
Matt Zahab
Not like New York Metropolis.
Elena Nadolinski
Yeah, it is somewhat bit like the identical actual factor. New York is certainly totally different, , skewed gender in several route. I imply, it’s dangerous. I do not assume it is that dangerous.
Matt Zahab
Yeah, Tech Bro goes to Tech Bro. It’s what it’s. Earlier than we soar into Iron Fish, we have to go over your previous tremendous cool work for enormous corporations, Microsoft, Tilt, Airbnb, 30 underneath 30 Forbes alum, and White Home and CIA. We’ll get into White Home and CIA in a bit. First we received to speak about Microsoft, Tilt, Airbnb. How cool is it working at corporations like that? What are a number of the largest classes you have realized, largest takeaways, issues the place you had been like, holy shit. I by no means knew this occurred or simply a number of the finest issues or worst issues that you simply did take or did not take to your current day as a CEO and founding father of a world-class crypto firm. Would you be taught at these world-class corporations?
Elena Nadolinski
I went to Microsoft for a number of causes one is I really do love Microsoft I believe it is an important firm they make actual merchandise nice merchandise and it is a revolutionary firm I believe lots of people have sort of went into the CS due to the Invoice Gates story proper? So I believe like traditionally it is nonetheless like an incredible firm for me personally. I’d be a part of a workforce name like that was throughout the workplace work. Nevertheless it was like a incubation workforce and the main focus was how can we construct merchandise which are not directly related to Microsoft? However sort of like a extra start-up surroundings and that was very engaging to me and that workforce specifically attracted a variety of nice minds from Microsoft and I all the time needed to begin my very own firm sooner or later. So it is sort of odd to enter Microsoft with that sort of focus in thoughts. However that individual workforce was really an important match. Different large corporations have sort of experimented with like incubations inside a bigger firm earlier than. And more often than not that mannequin doesn’t work out as a result of you possibly can’t fairly have a real startup expertise inside a big firm like Microsoft. And so my workforce really was re-ordered like 4 instances and morale was extraordinarily low. And that is once I went to an organization known as Tilt, which was a Bay Space firm startup funded by Andreessen. And my supervisor, my engineer supervisor was from Rackspace the place I interned beforehand, in order that was an important match. And that startup expertise was very worthwhile for me as effectively as a result of seven months after I joined Tilt, Tilt was really acquired by Airbnb and a part of the reason being as a result of they could not fairly get their enterprise mannequin to work. So, which is a really worthwhile lesson to study startups is, , paid acquisition would not all the time work as a result of that is what Tilt actually relied on so as to get its numbers up. And yeah, like simply seeing sort of a lifespan of a startup virtually flash earlier than my eyes inside that point interval, , was clearly considerably traumatic on the time, however trying again was really a reasonably nice lesson. After which Airbnb is an incredible firm to work for. So I used to be there for a couple of yr and a half and once I left to go be a part of sort of crypto full time, solely good issues to say about it. It is an incredible firm. In case you’ve ever been to their bodily workplace in San Francisco, it is in all probability one of the vital lovely workplaces of all time. So I bear in mind whereas we had been acquired and we had like that first tour, like our jobs had been on the ground. Prefer it was like, we get to work right here. Superb.
Matt Zahab
We made it. Yeah, that is so cool. After which what about like why the soar? Once more, I suppose earlier than the soar one factor that and I all the time ask my associates this, who work for the Fortune 500 large title cliche corporations with clout that everybody desires to work for with the loopy workplaces. Is rather like you mentioned, clearly you’re a very gifted developer, however what else do you should crush that interview course of? As a result of these guys interview hundreds of candidates and it is so troublesome to get in. What is the secret sauce for getting in? Any suggestions or recommendation in that regard?
Elena Nadolinski
Luck? I do know it is in all probability an unsatisfying reply, however we had been acquired. We nonetheless all needed to get interviewed, which was very traumatic as a result of mainly I believe the information that Tilt was going to close down and be acquired by Airbnb was delivered on Friday and that we had been all going to be re-interviewed on Wednesday. So when you have ever sort of studied for a technical interview, it takes greater than a weekend to arrange for that. And I bear in mind all the engineering workforce, the VP of engineering and the CTO, we had been all on the Tilt workplace on that weekend learning lead code questions for this interview. It is actually traumatic. Fortunately, I did really examine earlier than I joined Tilt as a result of I used to be interviewing earlier than I joined Tilt. In order that was considerably contemporary in my thoughts. However these are laborious questions. And so I bear in mind sooner or later, I put my palms up within the air and I mentioned, effectively, I am not going to have sufficient time to do a correct learning time for to memorize all of the 400 hyperlink code questions. So I am simply going to enter the interview and do as finest as I can and no matter occurs. And I bear in mind on the Uber experience to Airbnb for my interview, I received actually nervous as a result of I used to be not ready. And I used to be like, effectively, perhaps I ought to take a look at some hyperlink code questions. It was like a 15 minute Uber experience. So I opened up lead code on my cellphone. And again within the day, I do not know if that is nonetheless the case, however lead code would have like tab questions like, oh, this query was seen at Airbnb, like at Airbnb earlier than someone reported they’ve seen it. And so I seemed into the Airbnb tag and there is like a variety of questions. There is not any method I’ll have the time to undergo all of them. So I select one at random, which was really a really laborious query. It was the alien alphabet, just like the construct order query. If anybody’s acquainted with that, I take a look at it after which my first interview was that query.
Matt Zahab
Nicely, what? Maintain up. You bought to take a step again. What is the alien alphabet code or no matter you talked about? That appears wild.
Elena Nadolinski
Yeah. So the query was, think about you discovered an alien dictionary. Okay. So all of the phrases that you simply see are in alphabetical order, however you do not know the alphabet. So given a bunch of phrases, recreate the alphabet. So an instance is like, for example you might have like Abbott, apple, bike, creator, lifeless, no matter. So you might have these phrases. And so, I sort of made it somewhat bit extra apparent that like first, then you might have A after which B and so forth, however you might have an incomplete, like, what it’s a must to work out what the alphabet is. So for those who look in a dictionary and also you see like, , Abbott and apple, so A B, B is first, Apple, P is second. So that you sort of have to grasp that like, you should recreate the alphabet from these letters. And so it is a graph downside. So it’s a must to construct a graph after which it’s a must to work out easy methods to traverse the graph so as to get the alphabet. And so I’ve a tough downside for those who’ve by no means been uncovered to it earlier than. However that is why my reply is luck, proper? As a result of I actually had this query in entrance of me once I was in that Uber earlier than the interview and it was contemporary in my thoughts and I simply crushed it.
Matt Zahab
I like the honesty. 99% of individuals wouldn’t have mentioned luck in giving me some chilly showers, ice baths, lengthy walks, meditation bullshit. So I like the honesty.
Elena Nadolinski
I imply, I’ve had so many good associates fail these interviews, like who’re extraordinarily gifted, extra gifted than I’m, like higher builders, higher engineers who’ve failed these interviews. So, yeah. Luck is certainly the best reply. I bear in mind there was one well-known story of an open supply developer. I believe it is the one that made brew and he interviewed for Google and he failed the interview. And on the finish he mentioned, look, your whole firm makes use of my merchandise.
Matt Zahab
You may’t actually not rent me. That is why I like that. Let’s soar into a few of these awards. Once more, we have carried out 260 plus episodes on the pod. Plenty of actually attention-grabbing, extremely sensible individuals, all smarter than me, all extra unbelievable than me. One factor that stands out, White Home CIA Awards. That’s absolute craziness. What the heck occurred right here? Did you go to the White Home? How did that, like, give me the entire TLDR. What occurred? You bought to provide us the products right here.
Elena Nadolinski
I imply, once more, I believe my reply is luck. So mainly what occurred was these are awards from a very long time in the past. These are awards really from highschool. So I am from Virginia, which is bodily positioned actually near the CIA. Langley is a few miles from our home. And so at any time when we did science honest awards, individuals from the CIA would actually go to my highschool to take a look at these science awards. And so my science honest undertaking was compression, which is fairly just like encryption to some extent. And I received an award for it. After which the White Home was additionally very a lot luck. I used to be a part of this group known as Nationwide Heart for Girls in Know-how. And the organizer of that occasion was a part of the Obama administration STEM efforts. And he or she was in a position to get a talking alternative and he or she requested individuals to come back by, particularly people who find themselves representing NCWIT specifically. And I used to be actually the primary individual to RSVP to that request. So a variety of it’s really like, someone requested me throughout an interview query, really, like if I had been to price my luck and I’d say 9 out of 10. Like I believe a variety of the issues which have occurred in my life had been as a result of I used to be ready and I used to be simply there on time and I used to be in a position to react to a chance that sort of got here throughout my method. So I am unsure if that was a satisfying or an unsatisfying reply, however that is sort of how that occurred.
Matt Zahab
I like the honesty. Heck, we may have a complete podcast on luck as a complete and creating your individual luck. Actually, Elena will try this for spherical two. However sure, I like this. And it is humorous, you talked about Langley and Canadians are often higher on the subject of figuring out the place American cities, locations are simply since you guys are so vital in popular culture. And since, , I suppose, candidly talking, with out you guys, we would in all probability get taken over by most international locations on the earth. So we do lie our neighbors to the South, however I bear in mind all the time watching, , I like warfare films and like whether or not it is Zero Darkish Thirty or one thing else. After which they’re like, oh, snapshot to Langley, Virginia. And I am all the time like, the place the hell is Langley? And once more. small world, you grew up proper beside it. So simply humorous how loopy American popular culture is, it has such a presence in Canadians minds. However let’s soar in. 2017, you labored at a number of the most unbelievable corporations on the planet. Clearly, you had comfortable jobs. I am certain you had been making a reasonably penny, had the perfect advantages on the earth, in all probability hadn’t paid for a meal because you graduated with all of the sick advantages packages and all the perks at these corporations. Quick ahead to 2017, and also you determined to leap ship, take an enormous danger, begin Iron Fish. What was the story there?
Elena Nadolinski
Yeah. Wow. The meals had been nice, I’ve to say. Like as a foodie, leaving everybody was evil.
Matt Zahab
And then you definitely’re not, I received entrepreneur over right here. It is such as you go and I wish to get my tooth cleaned. Oh, 600 bucks to go to the dentist. Pretty. It is yeah. Your pains me, however my apologies for interrupting. Proceed please.
Elena Nadolinski
That is okay. You are in Canada. You will have well being care without spending a dime, proper? So give or take.
Matt Zahab
Now we have free well being care, however for those who personal your individual enterprise, you do not get no perks, however c’est la vie.
Elena Nadolinski
So perhaps the theme of the podcast needs to be luck. So my boyfriend on the time, who’s now my husband, was roommates with Juan Benay. Juan Benay began a undertaking known as IP Quick after which later turned a Palette Coin. And so in 2017, I went over to a dinner at their home. It was someone’s birthday, I believe it was really Juan’s birthday in Palo Alto. In order that they arrange a home in Palo Alto the place they lived and work mainly. And so I went to that dinner. It was like a 30, 40 individual dinner and everybody there was speaking about Ethereum. And beforehand I knew about Bitcoin. I knew somewhat bit about crypto. Did not actually know a lot about Ethereum. And right here I’m in a room with extraordinarily clever individuals all buzzing about Ethereum. And so forth the automotive experience again, I am like Googling, like, what’s Ethereum? And I bear in mind studying the tutorial for a way you do voting on chain, on Ethereum with Solidity. And I am pondering, that is cool, however I am confused by such a giant deal. It did not fairly click on to me at first. This ETH World Hackathon was introduced. It was at ETH Waterloo in 2017, and I used to be inspired to go. So I went, and that hackathon specifically was extraordinarily particular. That was a really particular second. Not solely was it the primary ETH World Hackathon, however everyone was there. Everybody who was early in crypto in 2017, working at Ethereum, they had been all there.
Matt Zahab
I’ve heard so a lot of them. No, I used to be not within the area again then, however I’ve, once more, I have been to Waterloo many, many instances. Wolford Laurier, which is the kind of enjoyable a part of uni, I might go see associates there, and then you definitely really Waterloo, which was the sensible child, , not nerd, however nerd uni, the place all essentially the most good individuals in Canada go to high school. So very acquainted with Waterloo. I’ve actually had in all probability 20 or 30 company on this pod, Elena, who’ve been at that 2017 occasion. It was the largest electrical manufacturing facility within the historical past of crypto. They mentioned each single individual was there. Loopy shit was occurring, and tons of unbelievable purposes that we use right this moment had been created, and the inception date was really throughout that week in ETH Waterloo again in 2017.
Elena Nadolinski
Yeah, it was loopy. I bear in mind like, was Vitalik even supplying you with a discuss ZKPs? I do not bear in mind anymore, however that may have been fairly revolutionary. However yeah, so I used to be at that hackathon. Once more, everyone was there and Metamask like, again within the day, it was only one man, Dan Finlay, who like, wrote MetaMask. The MakerDAO workforce was fairly small they usually had been like, the vast majority of them had been there. Like, Vitalik and his dad had been there. It felt actually particular. And for me, like, I am engaged on my hackathon undertaking. It is like 3 a.m. I can not get it to work. Fairly annoyed. I requested for assist. The individual says, like, look, I do not know what you are doing incorrect. However Dan Finlay, who wrote MetaMask, is correct behind you. Go ask him. So I do like a 180 in my chair. And I am like, hey, Dan, 3:30 a.m. I am pulling out my hair. Cannot get my hackathon undertaking to work. He like, I can not get this like MetaMask integration to work. May you assist me out? And like, he is debugging this with me and he is like, it is a bug in MetaMask. Like, here is a workaround. And like that felt extraordinarily particular. And I received a small prize from Maker for sort of this hackathon undertaking. And I used to be sort of inspired to sort of preserve going. I went to extra hackathons, ultimately began doing workshops and tutorials for easy methods to code in Solidity as a result of I assumed that was so vital. Just like the ERC-20 growth was occurring. In case you keep in mind that time, the ICO growth. And I used to be like, , I can dwell code a complete sensible contract on stage with just like the viewers, , if I can do it with TASA with a primary UI, like so are you able to. And that was like my entire spiel about like, do not be so impressed with this advertising and marketing language of like, oh, there is a denta coin on chain as a result of you are able to do it so simply as effectively. And in order that ERC-20s had been sort of boring. So I began doing tutorials on ERC-721s and received actually deep within the NFT group in 2018. I do not assume individuals understand that NFTs are that outdated. And like actually if I had simply, , pushed to mainnet, a number of the tutorials that I’ve carried out for ERC-721, someone gone someplace. However yeah, these had been unbelievable instances. I believe my second hackathon was with Alex and Devin from OpenSea, and we made this drag and drop NFT generator software, which additionally received a prize. After which in a while, I began doing these workshops, simply dwell slicing down stage these tutorials. So yeah, that was a reasonably particular time. And so I used to be mainly going all around the world to do workshops and hackathons and conferences and these talks whereas I used to be nonetheless an engineer at Airbnb. So sooner or later I assumed, okay, I ought to select what I wanna do full-time, as a result of it felt like I had two jobs. I had my crypto aspect gig, or aspect interest, after which I had Airbnb. And so I made a decision to give up. So I give up, I believe in July of 2018. It took me some time to sort of perceive what I needed to do on this area and to do my analysis. After which we closed a pre-seed spherical. It was an incredible investor right here in Silicon Valley who’s doing angel investing in October. And that is sort of when issues began. It was a really annoying yr go. We knew we would be desirous to work in privateness specifically. We really rewrote all the code base in 2020. So at any time when individuals ask me like, how outdated is Iron Fish? It is like, oh, it is like 4 and a half, however sort of two and a half years.
Matt Zahab
That is unbelievable. Wow. So many flashbacks and reversion Thursdays loopy. Elena, we’ve got to take a fast break and provides an enormous shout out to our sponsor of the Present, PrimeXBT. And after we get again, we will get into Iron Fish 101, you guys, Mainnet launch again on April twentieth. Cliché to do it on the twentieth. We like to see that. That was clearly earlier this yr. The significance of privateness in Web2, Web3, ZK Tech, and the world of L2s. However till then, large shout out to PrimeXBT, longtime associates of cryptonews.com and longtime associates of the Cryptonews Podcast. PrimeXBT provides a sturdy buying and selling system for each rookies {and professional} merchants. Does not matter for those who’re a rookie or a vet, you possibly can simply design and customise your layouts and widgets to finest suit your buying and selling model. PrimeXBT can also be operating an unique promo for listeners of the Cryptonews Podcast. After making your first deposit, 50% that’s 50% of that first deposit can be credited to your account as a bonus that can be utilized as further collateral to open positions. The promo code is CRYPTONEWS50. That is CRYPTONEWS50, all one phrase, to obtain 50% of your deposit credited to your buying and selling account. Once more, that’s CRYPTONEWS50, to obtain 50% of your deposit credited to your buying and selling account. And now again to the present with Elena. Let’s get proper into it. We received a enjoyable docket of crypto stuff on route, coming in scorching. Earlier than that, give me the TLDR, the elevator pitch on Iron Fish. What precisely you and the workforce do, after which we’ll get into the enjoyable stuff. So the ground is yours, the ball is in your court docket. What’s Iron Fish?
Elena Nadolinski
So Iron Fish focuses on privateness, our entire aim is to make crypto protected for customers to make use of by including personal transactions for all of your crypto belongings. So proper now, for example, for those who use Ethereum or Bitcoin, every part’s out within the open. So for those who had been to make use of it for real-world funds, you possibly can sort of think about being compelled to make use of like Venmo Public, like each single transaction you do is out within the open. So for Iron Fish, we’re constructing a privateness layer so you possibly can transfer your belongings over to Iron Fish and do all of the operations that you’d usually do, however in a privateness layer. Iron Fish is a Layer 1 chain, the place proof of labor, which may be very atypical. And these days, to launch a proof of labor chain and each transaction is totally encrypted, which means that it’s personal, so it hides the sender, the recipient, and quantity, or an asset sort, such that we will sort of help different belongings from different chains and supply the privateness layer for Web3.
Matt Zahab
And the large want level, was there a particular like, aha second, or was there like, I am bored with this shit, I am constructing my very own? Like was there a kind of use case inception story or something of the like?
Elena Nadolinski
So I believe we’re simply going to win. I believe that crypto goes to win as a funds platform, interval. And at this second in time, we’re going right into a darkish mirror episode, or black mirror episode, of getting all of your transactions out within the open. So for me, the necessity was very very similar to, I imagine in crypto, I do not imagine crypto goes to succeed with out privateness. And that half to me was lacking, that only a few individuals had been specializing in. If we take a look at the panorama of individuals engaged on privateness protocols, compared to perhaps anything, it is little or no. There are only a few tasks engaged on privateness. And to me, that appeared like the largest alternative, the largest want for crypto to unravel earlier than it goes mainstream. And admittedly, a necessity if we wish to create this wordless cost system. In order that was very a lot my thesis of if crypto goes to win, it has to have a privateness element so as to take action, and no one else is constructing it.
Matt Zahab
Touché. I imply, yeah, very blunt to the purpose. I like that. And also you guys mainnet launch on April twentieth. I like that you simply guys did that on April twentieth. Once more, what different trade the place it is like, think about if like some Fortune 500 firm apart from Tesla was like, oh, we will do a giant launch on 420. Such as you get laughed at right here, prefer it’s celebrated. I like that shit. Simply the most effective elements about crypto, IMO.
Elena Nadolinski
So this room behind is definitely even funnier, I believe. We’re purported to have launched on March 14th, 3.14, which is Pi Day. And we had been curing up for launch and we slipped. Just like the day earlier than, we mainly could not make it. And so we made this large announcement that we needed to delay launch and we’ve got a weblog submit about it. We really discovered a bug the day earlier than launch that we thought was so essential that we have to delay it. However individuals had been planning on transport on March 14th. And so our whole majority, like just about our whole engineering workforce went to Coachella and already purchased tickets to Coachella. And so the day the place everyone was again with a sooner or later buffer simply occurred to be 420. That is true story. In order that’s why we launched when individuals got here again from Coachella.
Matt Zahab
I completely love that. Now a few yr large and once more I’ve when doing analysis for the present there’s all the time a pair details that the visitor aka you is an absolute professional on and may actually hammer residence You will have a few actually good ones. One is merging privateness and compliance in Web3. The world of L2s and the significance of privateness of Web2 and Web3 we will sort out these in any order. Let’s begin with simply privateness as a complete after which we’ll get into the world of L2s as a result of I do know you might have some spicy takes on this and I can not wait to get into that. However let’s begin give us kind of the TLDR on the significance of privateness in Web2 and Web3. How they differentiate and why we’d like it so as to reach the long term.
Elena Nadolinski
Yeah, considered one of my talks was mainly that when Web2 breaks this promise of privateness Now we have catastrophic penalties. So what I imply by that’s if we’ve got information leaks like Equifax or we’ve got like different information leaks. Like for those who ever use Strava, for example, Strava is an app that tracks your runs for those who’re in a fleet. And it revealed mainly the placement of US Military bases world wide as a result of troopers would use Strava to go operating. And so like these are similar to quite simple examples the place at any time when we had information leaks in Web2, we had catastrophic penalties. However in Web3, there isn’t a like idea of privateness. Like overlook about information leaks. Like information leaks are in-built by design with each single motion that you simply do on Web3. And so for me, it is like, effectively, , I do know that Web2 is flawed, however at the least Web2 provides you extra of a privateness assure than Web3 will do. And it is like, if Web3 goes to love surpass Web2, it must be higher than Web2. And at this second in time, due to that privateness or lack of privateness, I ought to say, we will not actually make the argument that it is higher. You already know, clearly, like there’s different issues that we have to atone for like pace and so forth. However to ensure that know-how to surpass, it must be like 10x higher than the earlier know-how. And at this second in time, it is simply not. Clearly, there are totally different individuals which are specializing in various things, like scalability and stability. For us, we selected to give attention to privateness as a result of once more, it is one of many largest pillars that I believe is lacking, that only a few individuals are specializing in.
Matt Zahab
It is so true. It is unlucky as a result of, and also you and I had been speaking about this earlier than the present, privateness, it is so vital, however it’s not horny. You already know what I imply? Like once you ask somebody, like, oh, do you actually care about your privateness? Yeah, they’re going to provide the spiel, however on the finish of the day, they only need issues that work, issues which are environment friendly, , issues that provide you with what you need fast, on the spot gratification, dopamine hit. Nobody provides a shit. And it is so unlucky as a result of it is so frigging vital, ?
Elena Nadolinski
Nicely, I am going to push again on that, proper? So we’ve got doorways in our homes. Now we have that for a purpose. Similar to you are not a felony, proper? However you continue to have a door.
Matt Zahab
On-line privateness. You are bang on. You completely nailed it. That may be what Web1? You already know, like IRL and IRL. Yeah, in IRL privateness, sure, all of us care, however in Web2 and Web3, aka day-after-day on the web, like everybody’s on TikTok. TikTok’s actually watching your each transfer. Individuals do not care since you get these fast dopamine hits. It is enjoyable. You already know, it is a solution to kill time.
Elena Nadolinski
OK, here is one other instance. For instance you’re a teenager and also you’re shopping for contraceptive. Would you like your dad and mom to know that? In all probability not, proper? And in Web2, like you should utilize Venmo or a bank card or something. And we’re money even to love purchase issues that you simply could be embarrassed to, , for different individuals to know. You are able to do that with a reasonably good diploma of privateness. In case you had been to make use of Ethereum and your dad and mom knew about you, like that is your Ethereum pockets, they’d be capable to see, , for those who had been to love, , purchase a plan BPEL, proper? So I believe when individuals like different individuals understand like what monetary privateness or information privateness really need and once I put in that context, they’re like, oh, yeah, I would love that privateness.
Matt Zahab
That is very true. Good level. Hey, you bought me there. Elena two Matt zero. However sure, shifting on the world of L2s. Once more, this can be a large one for you and the workforce right here. Once more, I am not even going to attempt to clarify this as a result of you are able to do it method greater than me. I’ll throw the ball proper over to your court docket. It’s a must to contact on the purpose you touched on earlier earlier than the present regarding the significance of bridging between L1s and L2s and simply give us a fast little synopsis current day early September 2023 on the world of L2s and what we’ve got to look ahead to sooner or later as effectively.
Elena Nadolinski
Positive. So fast panorama verify of like what’s occurring within the L2 world. I am certain you heard that there is optimistic rollups after which there are ZK rollups they usually work otherwise. So for optimistic rollups, the best way that occurs is a few exercise occurs within the L2 after which the L2 information exercise of the L1 and you’ve got seven days for different individuals to submit fraud proofs if something it ferries has occurred. So it is sort of like an harmless till confirmed responsible mannequin successfully. And for ZK rollups, it is mainly confirmed by math that like an motion has occurred on the L2 and I may give you a stable proof, a cryptographic proof that the motion is right, which means that an individual will not be spending funds they do not have, like that they are primary checks which are sort of checked so as. And in order that’s going to have the ZK rollups work. In order you possibly can think about, ZK rollups are a lot more durable to construct. And so there are some which are like both mainnet or sort of coming to fruition at this second in time, however optimistic rollups at this second in time have extra attraction, extra quantity and so forth as a result of they had been in a position to launch earlier and as a lot simpler to make use of them. For optimism, the L2 launch one thing known as OP stack. So now anybody can host their very own L2 and we’ve got variety of tasks together with base, actual coin base, which have used the OP stack, which means like they’ve used the code base to create their very own L2. So in 2017, there was like then ICO growth of everybody creating their very own ERC-20 coin. And I really feel like now we’re sort of coming into this totally different growth of individuals launching their very own L2 to do one thing. And there is cons and professionals to that for my part. So for those who take a look at an L2, I sort of really feel like an outdated man shaking fists on the sky. Like L2s are similar to L1s. They’re sovereign chains. They don’t seem to be tied to Ethereum, at the least optimistic ones. They are not tied to Ethereum in ways in which individuals assume they’re. They’re sovereign chains. And the one distinction is that they’ve a unique consensus mechanism. And the consensus mechanism is, I say so. As a result of an L2 has a single sequencer, which means that they’ve a single block producer that accepts blocks. They settle for no matter blocks that they produce themselves. And at this second in time, fraud proofs usually are not dwell. I believe Arbitrum, which is one other optimistic rollup, has made extra developments fraud proofs. However I believe at this second in time, it is nonetheless not totally dwell. And I could be incorrect, however for OP stack that individuals are utilizing proper now, that is undoubtedly the case. And so once you sort of take a look at it that method, you are like. Okay, effectively, L2s are sort of like sovereign L1s with a unique consensus. So what’s the relationship with the L1? And so the bridge, and that is extra contract on the L1 are sort of like these relationships. And for bridging specifically, like bridging is tough. Like we have had so many hacks occur in 2020, 2021 with bridges, I suppose at 2021. We received just like the rodent hack, for those who keep in mind that, that was that $600 million hack, the Nomad bridge hack, just a few others.
Matt Zahab
It has kind of interrupt. That looks like it was yesterday. That was two years in the past then. That’s wild. That was the, Ronin was the Axie hack, proper?
Elena Nadolinski
Sure, when did that occur? That was, okay, 2022, I am sorry.
Matt Zahab
Nonetheless loopy that, yeah, simply crypto strikes so bloody fast. My goodness. Sorry, you had been saying the relation between L1s and L2s, the hacks, aspect word, it’s loopy, all these hacks that occur on bridges. It appeared like bridges had been simply getting completely attacked and no pun meant. And I really feel prefer it hasn’t gotten too a lot better. Like, yeah, there’s, you might have a variety of unbelievable corporations who had been such as you guys who actually go on the market and make life safer in Web3. However I nonetheless really feel like there’s so many vulnerabilities. Talking of assaults, Stake simply received, , and a variety of Web2 of us know what Stake is as a result of you might have like streamers like Aiden Ross and clearly Drizzy Drake, the boy, shout out Drake, who work with Stake. However loopy these hacks that they nonetheless occur on a regular basis. Hope this shit involves an finish quickly. It is not an excellent search for us of us at Web3.
Elena Nadolinski
No, and hacks like occur for various causes. Typically the bridge design is definitely good, however the implementation of it might need some flaws, proper? Or you might have operational and safety, which is sort of what occurred with Ronin. The story for that’s wild. I do not know if this, however the hacker went via a complete interview course of with Ronin as a result of the hacker needed an engineer with AWS keys on their laptop computer to open the PDF, the resume PDF, after which there was an exploit within the PDF itself. And like wild. stuff, proper? So just like the exploit was capable of finding the AWS keys that they had been in a position to entry the validator nodes for Ronin. Ronin was a multi-sig bridge, which means that you’ve got a quorum. I imagine that they had 9 validators and the bulk needed to log off for transactions to go via, , one chain to the opposite. The Axie Infinity, I imagine, had 4 out of the 9 validators, which isn’t a majority. However the fifth validator mainly auto, however like auto did every part, auto copied every part that the Axie Infinity validators did. So once more, the bridge design, just like the multi-sig bridge design is the most typical bridge design that we’ve got right this moment. Many of the bridges that you have heard of, like wormhole and so forth, they’re utilizing this multi-sig, they’re utilizing the very same structure. So it isn’t that the structure was flawed, it is just like the off set was flawed. And so like bridge design is clearly like very troublesome, and there is like a variety of traps. And so for us, we’re very a lot within the matter, as a result of we would like belongings from different chains to come back to Iron Fish. So we have carried out a variety of analysis. And after we seemed on the L2s, I mentioned, effectively, wait a minute, they’re mainly L1s for my part. As a result of the validation of the L2 occurs on the L2. Like the best way L2s work is that they mainly put the state on the L1, however validation doesn’t occur on the L1. It occurs on the L2. And so then the bridge providers fairly vital function there. After we look to the bridge, it is like, effectively, the bridge seems to be like a single signal or bridge between most of those L2s, which is like fairly harmful, proper? However as a result of it is sort of like hidden somewhat bit away by way of how individuals work together with L2s, most individuals do not give it some thought, which may be very attention-grabbing. Now, there are totally different L2 designs as effectively. So for example, all of them work the identical. The ZKVM from Polygon, I believe, is fairly attention-grabbing within the sense {that a} consumer mainly locks the funds themselves on the L1, after which the consumer themselves unlocks the funds on the L2. And so I am not fully certain if that is thought of non-custodial, however I’d personally argue that it is non-custodial as a result of the consumer mainly does all of the actions to lock in a lock themselves. So it isn’t the bridge that is minting or burning wrapped belongings. It is the consumer that is insuring these issues, which I believe is definitely actually cool. However yeah, there’s like quite a bit there. And I believe we’re shifting to sort of a extremely bizarre world the place we’re sort of realizing that the transaction value on L2s is cheaper than on L1s, however not by that a lot. So for example, for those who had been to spend like $10 to do an L1 transaction, you are still spending like $1 to do an L2 transaction. And that is nonetheless sort of costly for many of what you wish to do.
Matt Zahab
It is true. It is received to be grime low-cost.
Elena Nadolinski
Yeah. So why is the fee there? And a part of the explanation why the fee is there may be as a result of L2s mixture transactions and simplify them or compress them, after which they put that state on the L1. And similar to storage on the L1 may be very costly. So that’s the reason your transaction value that a lot. So then individuals received excited they usually had been like, if we do like information availability layers. So what if we’ve got L2 retailer information elsewhere, so the transactions are less expensive. However then the trade-off is that if the L2 saves information elsewhere, then is it an L2 for Ethereum or not? I’d argue that at that second in time, you are giving up much more safety for those who’re shifting away to a unique availability layer. So it is like a bizarre second in crypto the place so as to drive transactions or so as to drive down cost-worth for these transactions, we’ve got to even transfer to a extra centralized sort of like place that’s shedding a variety of the ethos of crypto. So clearly like that’s prime of thoughts for us as a result of we’re trying into easy methods to combine into that world. And sorry if that was a pessimistic view.
Matt Zahab
No, that was very effectively described. Among the finest ones on the pod. So I respect that. On the significance of L2s and this can be my final query on this matter and we’re getting tight for time, thoughts you, however OP. I am nonetheless seeing a lot OP information in every single place. That is optimism by the best way, of us. It is in every single place. Like, are you bullish on it long run? Is that this only a fad? Clearly, the launch of base, which is Coinbase’s L2 on OP, is large, proper? Everytime you get an organization like Coinbase coming in and shifting and grooving and constructing, that has ripple results. That strikes the needle. Is that this right here long run, Elena, or is that this simply the hype prepare?
Elena Nadolinski
So I am an enormous fan of the workforce. I believe optimism is like an unbelievable workforce. In case you take a look at the people who work there, they’re like, oh, gee, crypto individuals who have been like in Ethereum since virtually day one. So I believe they’re actually a particular workforce. So I believe like I am bullish on them figuring it out, however they’re dealing with actually laborious issues. Like the fundamental issues that I discussed of like, how do you be sure that it is nonetheless decentralized? How do you make certain the validation occurs on the L1 to some extent? How do you be sure that costs make sense with out you giving up every part by shifting to a unique information availability layer? Oh my gosh, I can not say that phrase. I believe they’re dealing with like actually laborious issues, however I am sort of bullish on the workforce to determine it out. I am figuring them out, however , I’m essential of the design they’ve right this moment, which is the truth that they do not have fraud proofs and the truth that everybody was sort of copying their design. And as part of the explanation why I used to be so passionate, , doing these tutorials in 2018, like I needed individuals to grasp how the software program is made, like how the tech really works to ensure that them to love imagine whether or not or not it is full decentralization. And at this second in time, like anybody going to love simply make their very own L2, like there’s even providers like Caldera, for example, that make that have like for you launching your individual L2, like two button clicks, proper? And so when it is that simple, and there is not that very similar to, , to tie into that, prefer it makes me apprehensive that we’re coming into a variation of just like the ICO growth, however now with these like app chains or these L2s. So I am very bullish on the workforce, however I am essential of the merchandise at this second in time and the way it’s utilized by numerous groups.
Matt Zahab
I like that. We’d must title this episode, Elena on the L2 growth. No, we would by no means, however that is very attention-grabbing take. And that is the primary time I’ve heard that. Elena, we’re getting tight for time. This has been an absolute deal with. Non-negotiable. You need to come on for spherical two as a result of we barely scratched the floor. However earlier than then, final query, scorching take manufacturing facility, you and I soar in, get our shit kicked, knee excessive boots on, let a pair scorching takes fly. Does not must be crypto associated. It may be well being, wealth, happiness, area race, aliens, AI, any spicy shit you bought for us earlier than we allow you to go right this moment.
Elena Nadolinski
That is quite a bit. Are you able to ask me a query? I am going to give my scorching take. Like aliens?
Matt Zahab
Give me aliens. First we’ll do aliens and we’ll do AI. We’ll simply stick to the A’s. Are aliens actual?
Elena Nadolinski
Oh my gosh, aliens. Do I imagine they’re actual? I imply, I believe like somebody mentioned this quote, I believe prefer it’s scarier to assume that we’re the one species within the universe. So I wish to imagine that they are aliens, however I additionally learn the three physique downside. I do not know for those who learn the guide, however the idea of the guide is, for example you think about you are in darkish forest and also you meet someone in darkish forest, and also you assume, okay, perhaps they wish to kill me as a result of they do not know who I’m. So I ought to kill them first for the off probability that they may wish to kill me first. And that entire idea is like utilized to aliens. And so like if aliens know who we’re, then like, why are we alive?
Matt Zahab
Very true. They’re simply mocking us. They’re like, take a look at these peasants. Have a look at these people.
Elena Nadolinski
I imply, there’s so many different, like, okay, so here is my scorching take at aliens. Possibly aliens are simply actually historical people from a earlier civilization.
Matt Zahab
What about all this UFO stuff? Is it bizarre that the UFOs solely pop up over like Nevada and different elements of the States which have army bases and never a variety of cities shut by? Is that spooky in any capability, or is it simply all nonsense?
Elena Nadolinski
Completely. I imply, there’s like two arguments, proper? If aliens do exist, then they’re like, oh my gosh, these people, they are going to blow themselves up. We higher monitor this case, particularly if aliens dwell on this planet in some way like underwater, proper? They’re like, okay, we’re apprehensive. You already know, the opposite scorching take is that perhaps they’re simply army operations, proper? Like if I am the US authorities and I made an plane that resembled a UFO, I’d undoubtedly wish to check it out subsequent in Nevada or whatnot. However then if anybody sees it, I will be like, oh, it is a UFO. I believe the truth that the federal government is like propagating this concept that these UFOs are aliens makes me extra suspicious that it is simply army plane.
Matt Zahab
I imply, we’re thus far superior with what we will do right this moment. I do not see how they don’t seem to be engaged on some loopy stuff behind the scenes, however that is effectively above your good pay grade. Possibly not you, as a result of your boy’s gals, somewhat, with the CIA and the White Home, the place…
Elena Nadolinski
Oh gosh, no, that was highschool. That was very long time in the past.
Matt Zahab
Hey, it is within the bio. You bought to take that to the grave, ? A minimum of for those who knock on the door, like along with your trophy, they may allow you to in. With me, they’re going to be like, who’s this curly-headed, , Canadian Lebanese fuck and throw me behind bars.
Elena Nadolinski
Hey, you made an important podcast. In order that’s a factor.
Matt Zahab
We’ll take it. Small wins. Elena, this has been an absolute deal with. Thanks a lot for approaching, realized a ton and have some homework to do and can’t wait to have you ever on for spherical two earlier than you allow. Are you able to please let our listeners know the place they’ll discover you and Iron Fish Basis. Every thing Iron Fish associated for that matter on-line and on socials.
Elena Nadolinski
Superior. My Twitter is @leanthebean. It is the identical factor on Telegram and syndicate from center faculty is caught round. After which for Iron Fish, @ironfishcrypto is the tag line for Twitter. And if you wish to be a part of our Discord, which I extremely advocate if you’d like be taught extra about Iron Fish, it is discord.ironfish.community. After which clearly our web site is ironfish.community. So when you have any questions, we’re on Discord. We’re there. Simply tag me they usually’ll make certain to reply your query.
Matt Zahab
There it’s. People what an episode. Elena, thanks once more. Actually respect it and may’t watch for spherical two.
Elena Nadolinski
Superior. Thanks a lot.
Matt Zahab
People, what an episode with Elena Nadolinski, CEO of Iron Fish Basis. People, we received some homework to do. She was dropping information bombs left, proper and middle the world of L2s. The large L2 growth which we’re at the moment seeing and can proceed to see Privacytek, you title it, ZK Rollups, we touched on it. Enormous shout out to Elena and the workforce for hooking this up. In case you guys loved this one, I hope you probably did. Please do subscribe. It could imply the world to my workforce and I. Talking of the workforce, love you guys a lot. Thanks for every part as all the time, we’ll be misplaced with out you. Love you all. Justas my superb sound editor. You are the GOAT. Admire you. You know the way a lot you do and it doesn’t go unnoticed. Would even be misplaced with out you and again to the listeners. Love you guys. Thanks a lot for every part. Thanks for tuning in. Carry on rising these luggage and carry on staying wholesome, rich and glad. Bye for now and we’ll speak quickly.
